Curse

Winterclaw · May 31, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Why doesn't ANet go another route to dealing with botters as well as banning?

For example when people log in, ask them not to visit sites that sell gold or advertise gold sellers. Less customers and less ad referrals would be a big deterrant to both.

Another option would be a reward for the player base (that would be difficult for the botters to program in) if the number of botters drop signifigantly and stay that way, like a new monster that is randomly placed in a zone (outside a normal botting route) and drops 1K gold and 1 gold item for every person in the party (he'd only have the extra drop once per person per weekend event).

lyra_song · May 31, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Copyright has nothing to do with something being commercial, non-profit or educational in nature. Copyright is about creating (and distributing) a work which is based on, or contains part (or whole) of another work. Publishing screenshots (as is done here) on the web would sooner violate copyrights then selling in-game gold on ebay.

Copyright infringement falls under domain of using someone's work without their permission.

You are using copyrighted material ie: the game's client.
You are using the server/bandwidth.
You are selling copyrighted material ie: gold/ecto/weapons whatever.

The whole "we arent doing anything wrong, we are selling a service" excuse is exactly that, an excuse.

The service is built around someone else's work. Without that work, the service wouldnt exist. We're not talking about an independent business that provides its own content or product or service.

---------

If i started using copyrighted songs to make money, that would be a more obvious and easily understood violation.

What makes it different from using a copyrighted client, copyrighted armor, copyrighted monks, copyrighted spells, copyrighted skills, copyrighted everything, to sell copyrighted gold for real money?

MSecorsky · May 31, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

lyra's right folks. In a nutshell, gold sellers are selling something they don't own and don't have a right to sell. Simple enough... that constitutes fraud by leading people to believe that you can legally sell them something you can't.

Amy Awien · May 31, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Copyright infringement falls under domain of using someone's work without their permission.

No. Plain and simple, no. Copyright is not about using someone's work to produce another work. It is about creating and publishing a derivative work that contains, in part or in whole, that original work. Not about using it, or producing other works with it, or providing services with it.

When I read (use) a book copyrights are not involved, whether I bought, borrowed or even stole the book. Only when I write another book and base that in whole or in part upon the book (story, characters) I read, copyrights becomes involved.

MS Word is a copyrighted software. The book I write using that copyrighted software is not an infringement on MS's copyrights. That would be ludicrous.

When someone installs and or/maintains Windows and gets paid for that service, that is not an infringement of copyright, even though that particular service could not exist without the software.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Lyra's right folks. In a nutshell, gold sellers are selling something they don't own and don't have a right to sell.

No, he is not, and you are not. Gold Sellers are selling something they own, their time and effort, or rather, the buyer's time and effort (or lack thereof).

lyra_song · May 31, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No. Plain and simple, no. Copyright is not about using someone's work to produce another work. It is about creating and publishing a derivative work that contains, in part or in whole, that original work. Not about using it, or producing other works with it, or providing services with it.

And how does that not fit gold selling? The so called "derivative work" contains ALL of the "original work" since it exists in the same copyrighted client.

Quote:

When I read (use) a book copyrights are not involved, whether I bought, borrowed or even stole the book. Only when I write another book and base that in whole or in part upon the book (story, characters) I read, copyrights becomes involved.

Agreed.

Quote:

MS Word is a copyrighted software. The book I write using that copyrighted software is not an infringement on MS's copyrights. That would be ludicrous.

But the book you write is not a PART of MS Word. Your book could be written on any other software. Word is not intrinsically linked to your work.

The Gold that is being sold is PART of the client. Its programmed data that represents money in the game. The gold being sold is intrinsically linked to the client because it IS part of the client.

Quote:

When someone installs and or/maintains Windows and gets paid for that service, that is not an infringement of copyright, even though that particular service could not exist without the software.

Servicing a software and installing/maintaining it is radically different from from taking chunks of a software and selling it.

You installed the software. Anet is servicing/maintaining it. Goldsellers are niether.

MSecorsky · May 31, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, he is not, and you are not. Gold Sellers are selling something they own, their time and effort, or rather, the buyer's time and effort (or lack thereof).

So, if I steal a car and sell it to someone else, it's OK if I claim I'm just selling my time and effort to get the car (or rather the buyer's lack of time and effort saved from having to go through a dealer, credit checks, et.al.)? Your argument not only borders on lunacy; it's encompassed by it. Time and Effort is not a valid argument when you don't own the item you're trying to sell in the first place!

ANet "owns" the virtual gold. They specifically do not permit anyone to sell their gold for real world cash. Anyone doing so can, if they chose to persue it, be slapped with Fraud.

Amy Awien · May 31, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

They are not taking and selling chunks of the software. In essence it is the time and effort normally required to collect the gold in-game that is sold. The time and effort the buyer saves and the time and effort invested by the seller.

The sellers thus provide a service (of time and effort) and claiming copyright infringement is, in my opinion, not a very solid path to combat it.

Claiming that those gold sellers abuse ANet's resources - as you suggested - would probably be a better legal approach. If the numbers on banned bot-accounts are correct, a substantial part of processing and network resources would be consumed by the bots operated by those gold sellers and essentially ANet's operational costs are increased by these people.

MSecorsky · May 31, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

The gold is the intellectual property of ANet. They have granted you permission to obtain said gold within normal gameplay for your personal use in game using all the time and effort you see fit. They specifically forbid the use of their property for sale for real world cash. That is clearly spelled out, and it is their right to remove you from the game for failure to comply.

I took a break and looked up the legal definition of fraud. Selling ANet's gold seems to walk the line of fraud... I'd dare say the winner goes to the better lawyer should it ever be brought to that point.

lyra_song · May 31, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

The argument is that.....Gold Sellers are a service industry, and as such, they have no end product to sell, only the service is for sale, and such sale of service is legal and non-infringing.

However compare to other service industries like...say....landscapers. They take your property, and make it all pretty and you pay them. But in the end, its still something that belongs to you in the first place. They never sold you anything. Same with other service industries; hairstylists, manicurists, waiters, carpet cleaners, plumbers, repairpeople, prostitutes.

Now....Goldsellers are explicitly different in that theres a transfer of ownership of something from player to player for money. This is not a service. This is a product that is being sold.

The only thing that fits as a service would be if you paid someone to take your account and farm with it. This would be, no doubt in my mind, a service. A ToS violation...but not a copyright violation.

Amy Awien · May 31, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

So, if I steal a car and sell it to someone else ...

They do not take anything away from ANet by selling game-gold for real cash, comparing it to car-theft is ludicrous. As is the idea that 'gold' would be the 'intellectual property' of ANet. Come on, NWN had gold, most RPG's use either 'gold' or 'credits' as currency and for centuries real gold was a currency.

The copyright and intellectual property approach is without merit, IMO. They aren't stealing and selling 'gold' or copyrighted material. They are selling time and effort.

If you're looking for something more substantial being stolen you'd better look at the resources and payed for required to run the servers that are abused by the bots that farm for gamegold.

Quote:

ANet "owns" the virtual gold.

Sigh ... and they still own this 'virtual gold', no matter how often it is sold on ebay and when ANet shut down their servers, it's all gone.

Quote:

They specifically do not permit anyone to sell their gold for real world cash. Anyone doing so can, if they chose to persue it, be slapped with Fraud.

No, not fraude. Selling gold just against the agreement. If someone plays the game and trades game-gold for real cash, they break their agreement with ANet. But please explain how you think this is fraude?

MSecorsky · May 31, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Sigh ... and they still own this 'virtual gold', no matter how often it is sold on ebay and when ANet shut down their servers, it's all gone.

You are so close to seeing the light...

Quote:

No, not fraude. Selling gold just against the agreement. If someone plays the game and trades game-gold for real cash, they break their agreement with ANet. But please explain how you think this is fraude?

They are taking virtual gold that does not belong to them and selling it to you in exchange for your real money. They defraud people of their money by fooling them into thinking it's ok to purchase the gold that the seller doesn't own in the first place.

Now let's roll it back to your argument about 'time and effort'. Any sale of any product includes within the sale price the 'time and effort' (costs to produce) of the item, plus the item itself. In all those cases, however, the seller has the legitamite right to sell the product. They own the product being sold. Gold sellers do not. Gold sellers are explicitily forbidden from doing what they do, period.

GodofAcid · May 31, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Amy, I'm sorry but you really don't have a leg to stand on here. I don't feel like getting into a long debate over legal semantics, that's what I was hoping to avoid in the first place. To make it as simple as possible, if these people weren't doing anything illegal, I think that would have been the first reason Gaile would have given as to why Anet doesn't pursue this in a legal forum. I'm sorry, I just can't see any logic to your argument that what these gold sellers are doing isn't copyright infringement.

Age · May 31, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

O.o

I think the police got better things to do.....

If they aren't really busy you never know what they like to do even if it means looking into your own computer as they may find other things.In your first post I am glad I talk on alliance chat and press G to go back my Guild Hall no bot could do that.I can't believe that most you throw away your cd keys it is like throwing your house or car keys way.What do you do when you reformat you HDD back the GW file on cd?I would just do a complete clean reinstall of it all in fact I delete my datback file once in awhile.You would need the cd key if you wanted to do a complete reinstall if Anet doesn't provide you with a replacement key.

There is one thing I would like to ask Gaile how long do you keep an account banned before deletion?

Loviatar · May 31, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

You would need the cd key if you wanted to do a complete reinstall if Anet doesn't provide you with a replacement key.

completely wrong as the key is only used one time to set up the account serverside.

type in your login/pass on any pc GW is on and play.

you keep it safe for proof of ownership later if needed and it says not to lose them.

Quote:

There is one thing I would like to ask Gaile how long do you keep an account banned before deletion?

she stated long ago that they are never deleted under any circumstances.

Amy Awien · May 31, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodofAcid

Amy, I'm sorry but you really don't have a leg to stand on here. I don't feel like getting into a long debate over legal semantics, that's what I was hoping to avoid in the first place. To make it as simple as possible, if these people weren't doing anything illegal, I think that would have been the first reason Gaile would have given as to why Anet doesn't pursue this in a legal forum. I'm sorry, I just can't see any logic to your argument that what these gold sellers are doing isn't copyright infringement.

Could you give an actual argument as to why you think that selling gold would be a copyright infringement? Because, despite the fancy words (legal semantics?) your post is actually void of any real content. I've given my reasoning, you've given nothing.

There may be a lot wrong with this gold selling, but it is not a copyright infringement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

However compare to other service industries like...say....landscapers. They take your property, and make it all pretty and you pay them. But in the end, its still something that belongs to you in the first place.

You appear to be limiting service to 'changing something that belongs to you', but that is awfully restricted. You can buy information for instance, like a phone number. Providing that information is considered a service but the information is not something you own.

Quote:

Now....Goldsellers are explicitly different in that theres a transfer of ownership of something from player to player for money. This is not a service. This is a product that is being sold.

Service is a product, even when it's not something you can touch. You see the (virtual) gold, I see the time the buyer saves as the product, or service that is sold.

Quote:

The only thing that fits as a service would be if you paid someone to take your account and farm with it. This would be, no doubt in my mind, a service. A ToS violation...but not a copyright violation.

There's no copyright violation involved in selling GW-gold on ebay, no matter how you try to turn it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

They are taking virtual gold that does not belong to them and selling it to you in exchange for your real money.

That is not fraude, the buyer is aware of how virtual this gold is. With the gamegold that is sold, the buyer can buy the virtual thingies in the game as well as the virtual gold he (could have) looted himself. He knows as much and it's exactly why he purchases this gamegold.

Quote:

They defraud people of their money by fooling them into thinking it's ok to purchase the gold that the seller doesn't own in the first place.

So, it would be ok if the buyers were informed that they'd be breaking the ToS by buying gold?

Quote:

Now let's roll it back to your argument about 'time and effort'. Any sale of any product includes within the sale price the 'time and effort' (costs to produce) of the item, plus the item itself. In all those cases, however, the seller has the legitamite right to sell the product. They own the product being sold. Gold sellers do not. Gold sellers are explicitily forbidden from doing what they do, period.

They sell the virtual gold they virtually own in the game. Within the rules of the game-world they do own that gold. In the end the real world product that is sold for real world money, the product the buyer is looking for is is still the time and effort that the buyer saves.

In the real world, they break the Terms of Service, but that does not make it illegal.

Age · May 31, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

completely wrong as the key is only used one time to set up the account serverside.

type in your login/pass on any pc GW is on and play.

you keep it safe for proof of ownership later if needed and it says not to lose them.

she stated long ago that they are never deleted under any circumstances.

I said that about cd keys because if you knew about older or RTS games that you can play offline for eg. MTW or MTW2 they need cd key if you uninstall them and reinstall them all the time.I keep mine as safty note.I am glad that they will never delete an account even banned.

The Herbalizer · May 31, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

People arguing that they bought gold sellers time is silly. You know it and Anet know it you want one thing and that isnt their time, its their gold.

Anet I dont think care if you pretend all you wanted was their time as you paid for gold, end of.

I can think of tons of way to not get caught so if you break the rules and dont cover your tracks then thats you fault....

Anet can pretty much ban you for anything from what I have gathered so there is not really anything you can do or anyone to go to if you get banned. If Anet want to ban you for buying someones time I am sure they will. No matter how you play around with words everyone knows gold and gold only is being sold and bought not time.

Loviatar · May 31, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

[QUOTE=Age]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

I said that about cd keys because if you knew about older or RTS games that you can play offline for eg. MTW or MTW2 they need cd key if you uninstall them and reinstall them all the time.I keep mine as safty note.I am glad that they will never delete an account even banned.

i still have my Elder Scrolls Arena key as well as the Baldurs Gate series, Ice Wind Dale Ultima etc

i even keep my windows compatable pixel perfect copy of the original LEGEND of ZELDA on the desktop for a change of play

lyra_song · Jun 01, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

You appear to be limiting service to 'changing something that belongs to you', but that is awfully restricted. You can buy information for instance, like a phone number. Providing that information is considered a service but the information is not something you own.

The services i listed are labor based, which is what goldfarming would equate to. Its about labor, massive amounts of labor for a small harvest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

No matter how you play around with words everyone knows gold and gold only is being sold and bought not time.

:/ ya but going to court means convincing a jury or judge exactly that this is fact and not just semantics.

How techsavy and understanding of the situation would a judge/jury be?

Hence the reason we're having the whole arguement as to what would be the best way to approach a court to convict someone who's been goldselling.

What real laws have they broken?

===============

I once posted that we should make the EULA a contract you have to SIGN and VALIDATE your identity, before the game activates, give Anet the ability to prosecute those who violate said contract.

Needless to say, lots of people dont like that idea.

MoriaOrc · Jun 01, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

People arguing that they bought gold sellers time is silly. You know it and Anet know it you want one thing and that isnt their time, its their gold.

It's not silly at all. Let's have some examples of times that you pay for someone elses time:

In game: I've just come to Lions Arch with my new Nightfall characer and I want to get to Crystal Desert as fast as possible. I pay someone 500g* to run me to Sanctum Cay so I don't have to go through the trouble of getting there myself. I'm paying them for the time it takes them to run me there.
(Possible complaint: all transactions are made in game so they have no value? Clearly, though, the gold has some value to the runner.)
*(I have no idea what the average price is because I don't use runners)

In reality: I go to a car mechanic for a regular tune-up. I get my tires rotated. I have to pay them $2 or something to get it done. I'm paying them for their time and access to their equipment.
(Possible complaint: I own the car and have given permission)

In reality part 2: I have a couple of homework assignments due in a day. One of them is for a class my friend has already taken. I convince him to do that assignment for me, in exchange for a free lunch (Or rather, I pay for the lunch) while I work on the other assignment(s). Once again, I'm paying him for his time.

The last is probably the closest IRL example I can think of for what gold-sellers do. I'm not paying my friend for the homework, I could do it myself (if I hadn't slacked off). I'm paying him for the homework now, in other words, for his time. It also has some of similar ethical issues (should I get a good grade on the homework even though I didn't do it?) as gold selling. Note that like gold selling, it isn't illegal for me to do this, however if the school I go to finds out it can take disciplinary action up to and including kicking me out (a.k.a. banning).

Further more, gold selling isn't illegal (Don't hit reply just yet though! Because I'm in no way supporting it). Some of these arguments about copyright are so far out there I can barely believe it ... Amy is dead on here (and should know that at least one other person here realizes it).

The real problem with selling gold is that it's something we've all agreed not to do in the GW ToS. ArenaNet has agreed to give us access to their game and servers to play GW, and in return one of the things we agreed when creating our account was that we would not sell in game goods for real world goods. We also agreed that we would not use automated stand-alone programs to get in-game goods (main way gold-sellers get gold is botting after all). Therefore, if they find out someone is using a bot, or selling gold for real-world money, they can deny access to their servers because you've violated the contract you agreed to when you signed up. No more, no less.

(EDITed to html->bbcode-ify those italics tags)